dsda-doom v0.26.0 UDMF [2023-05-29] / [light mode stuff]

Not a fan of the indexed light mode being forced on us. The entire reason I used the GL renderer was so I didn't have to deal with it.

1 hour ago, SteelPH said:

Not a fan of the indexed light mode being forced on us. The entire reason I used the GL renderer was so I didn't have to deal with it.

A goal of the port is to have more or less parity between the renderers. There are technical impediments to this but it's been heading in this direction step by step. In an ideal world it would be impossible to tell which renderer you are using, aside from performance.

Just now, SteelPH said:

Not a fan of the indexed light mode being forced on us. The entire reason I used the GL renderer was so I didn't have to deal with it.

Isn't it possible to turn off the indexed light mode when using OpenGL? Pretty sure it was possible in 0.25 (although I'll have to recheck as I haven't really migrated from DSDA 0.24.3 yet).

4 hours ago, ReaperAA said:

 

Isn't it possible to turn off the indexed light mode when using OpenGL? Pretty sure it was possible in 0.25 (although I'll have to recheck as I haven't really migrated from DSDA 0.24.3 yet).

Nope, removed as of 0.26.0.

Just now, SteelPH said:

Nope, removed as of 0.26.0.

Oh. That's kinda disappointing. There are places where truecolor hw renderer looks better imho.

Why is the indexed light mode now forced on everyone?

The GLBoom renderer looked a lot better.

4 minutes ago, Coincident said:

Why is the indexed light mode now forced on everyone?

The GLBoom renderer looked a lot better.

https://www.doomworld.com/forum/post/2650773

On 5/29/2023 at 10:54 PM, dsda-dev said:

A goal of the port is to have more or less parity between the renderers. There are technical impediments to this but it's been heading in this direction step by step. In an ideal world it would be impossible to tell which renderer you are using, aside from performance.

I don't agree that an ideal world means people only choosing between the software renderer and the indexed mode.
What are the arguments in favor of this being ideal?
What was wrong with having GLBoom as a choice?

It feels disappointing to have this choice removed, especially as someone who streams/records video.
I did not expect to have the appearance of all my footage changed permanently.

2 minutes ago, Coincident said:

I don't agree that an ideal world means people only choosing between the hardware renderer and the indexed mode.
What are the arguments in favor of this being ideal?
What was wrong with having GLBoom as a choice?

It feels disappointing to have this choice removed, especially as someone who streams/records video.
I did not expect to have the appearance of all my footage changed permanently.

Indeed.

I've never been a frequent user of DSDA but it has been my port of choice for when I was in need of something more classic, like watching demos. I never liked the paletted look and surely use the true color renderer for this. So now I am forced to make a choice between the latest version of this port while accepting the graphical regression or sticking with an old one - or even switching back to PrBoom+. That's not a welcome choice. :(

I don't understand what people see in hardware rendering with no features to actually make it look good (think GZDoom), but it's probably too late to force it out.

1 minute ago, Da Werecat said:

I don't understand what people see in hardware rendering with no features to actually make it look good (think GZDoom), but it's probably too late to force it out.

Just true color support and nearest + linear mipmap filtering will do a lot to make things look better. If you play GZDoom with no dynamic lights and the same filtering options it will mostly look the same.

10 minutes ago, Professor Hastig said:

Just true color support and nearest + linear mipmap filtering will do a lot to make things look better.

Technically, it should be better, especially with Doom's asinine palette. But simple environments can benefit from some visual noise to make them appear less artificial. It's a trade-off.

1 hour ago, Coincident said:

What are the arguments in favor of this being ideal

I want the visual experience of players to be consistent, and consistent with the original style. This isn't a port for fancy graphic features and those old light modes were inherited features that are opposed to that goal. By the way, since you're a speedrunner, it's very likely that the indexed mode would have been forced in strict mode anyway, even if the old light modes were still there. There are some pretty significant differences in visibility. The only reason it wasn't already is because there were still some big bugs in 0.25. Having less variance in renderer options also reduces the surface area for bugs, of which there are currently still many in opengl, and makes it easier to address them and test fixes. Sometimes breaking things down and simplifying is the best path towards the long term goal. It may frustrate you in the short term but I'm thinking about the distance future and there are a lot of things I still want to do.

23 minutes ago, dsda-dev said:

I want the visual experience of players to be consistent, and consistent with the original style. This isn't a port for fancy graphic features and those old light modes were inherited features that are opposed to that goal. By the way, since you're a speedrunner, it's very likely that the indexed mode would have been forced in strict mode anyway, even if the old light modes were still there. There are some pretty significant differences in visibility. The only reason it wasn't already is because there were still some big bugs in 0.25. Having less variance in renderer options also reduces the surface area for bugs, of which there are currently still many in opengl, and makes it easier to address them and test fixes. Sometimes breaking things down and simplifying is the best path towards the long term goal. It may frustrate you in the short term but I'm thinking about the distance future and there are a lot of things I still want to do.

I understand the reasoning. Thanks for explaining.

1 hour ago, dsda-dev said:

I want the visual experience of players to be consistent, and consistent with the original style. This isn't a port for fancy graphic features and those old light modes were inherited features that are opposed to that goal. By the way, since you're a speedrunner, it's very likely that the indexed mode would have been forced in strict mode anyway, even if the old light modes were still there. There are some pretty significant differences in visibility. The only reason it wasn't already is because there were still some big bugs in 0.25. Having less variance in renderer options also reduces the surface area for bugs, of which there are currently still many in opengl, and makes it easier to address them and test fixes. Sometimes breaking things down and simplifying is the best path towards the long term goal. It may frustrate you in the short term but I'm thinking about the distance future and there are a lot of things I still want to do. 

I personally prefer software rendering but I do check the txt file of a wad before playing it and there are a number of wads that were designed for glBoom+ meaning the author designed the wad with the glboom light-mode in mind so playing with it cannot be considered as unfair and playing in software it can be ugly or even give advantages or disadvantages. dsda-doom is compatible with glboom wads so it is expected that it will allow to emulate the glboom light-mode. I was playing some Alexander "Eternal" S. wads and for LongDays.wad or napalm.wad for example he recommends specifically glboom-plus.

When playing vanilla wads software-like render should be used (if you are a purist), but I am not sure this should be the case with many more modern wads designed in the mid 2000s, when many people started using glboom or even GZDoom later on (Also Alexander seems to test his wads with GZDoom). I think a lot of prboom-wads were intended to be played with glboom render. I would not bet on specific numbers but I think it is a significant amount.

Personally I tend to play old wads like this with the old prboom-plus 2.5 that is a bit faster on my PC but I think most people would rather use the latest dsda-doom.

I guess people can still use prboom-plus 2.6 that is still maintained, if they feel the wad they are playing need glboom lightmode.

The forced indexed lightmode : Its awesome!

I always wanted a port who looks pretty close to software with the performance of Hardware. 

Also, the new fuzz is very good!

Thanks @dsda-dev for providing us this invaluable gift!

I thought I was going crazy not being able to find the sector light option. Especially since quite a few guides online still recommend using shaders, or suggest adjusting sector lighting for different WADs. 

I won't pretend to understand what the forced indexed light mode's overall impact on the long-term development of DSDA is (and I tried reading the explanation a couple of times lol), but it sounds like bascially fewer options = fewer bugs? As a casual gamer (not speedrunner or streamer), I did notice some difference in this new version, though it was hard to articulate what the actual difference is. Things just felt a little... off. 

Oh well, it's all rather beyond me. Maybe I will try using PrBoom+ instead and hope that there is some allowance in future builds. Still, many thanks for continuing to work and improve this source port!