are secrets that the player can get locked out of really all that bad?

14 minutes ago, roadworx said:

is there any legitimate reason other than "i can't 100% this map blind this sucks fuck you" that makes this so horrible?

I think if a map is long, let us say anything over 30 minutes, then accessible secrets are good.

If the map is short, then your point about locked out secrets and replay value is fine.

I don't care for permanently locked secrets (or any non-backtracable progression for that mapper), but I wouldn't consider it to be an interesting way to add replayability. There are other much more creative approaches to add replayability, locked secrets seem like a minor and unimportant thing, especially if they just contain a powerup - why would I replay the map just for that? If I'm going to replay it, it's likely for other reasons (interesting non-linearity, changing fights, exploration aspects, or simply because the map is super fun).

And tbh people who care to see everything in one playthrough can just noclip, people who don't will leave the map no matter if the secret is locked by the end of it or not (and might replay or not for other reasons).

I can see an issue arising if being locked out of a secret is not communicated towards the player in some way. Also as previously mentioned, if the secret has something meaningful like an area map or even a secret level exit then I have no issue with barring access. However, if it is just some ammo or even a powerup like partial invisibility then why bother?

imo sometimes elegant design is a SLADSKUL pillar blocking an obvious supply cache, communicating that "you messed up and I'm not going to tell you how"

and locking secrets can absolutely be part of non-linearity, eg. you walk onto a key platform and hear a door closing - could I have gotten to that area without the key? i love that kind of thing

It definitely feels like a big 'fuck you' - especially when you don't know that the final secret you're missing is now impossible to obtain.

35 minutes ago, Ravendesk said:

I don't care for permanently locked secrets (or any non-backtracable progression for that mapper), but I wouldn't consider it to be an interesting way to add replayability. There are other much more creative approaches to add replayability, locked secrets seem like a minor and unimportant thing, especially if they just contain a powerup - why would I replay the map just for that? If I'm going to replay it, it's likely for other reasons (interesting non-linearity, changing fights, exploration aspects, or simply because the map is super fun).

well yeah, ofc there's more to it than that. if a map was entirely linear and the only bit of replayability was a single run-of-the-mill secret that you can get locked out of, then yeah, i'd fully agree with you. however, it's simply something that compounds it, adds a little more to what's already there. especially if it's something that's really interesting and you actually wanna see, such as an entire area of the map for you to explore or something that lets you get the upper hand on a fight. not just some boring-ass closet that only people who obsessively max everything go for

3 minutes ago, BeachThunder said:

It definitely feels like a big 'fuck you' - especially when you don't know that the final secret you're missing is now impossible to obtain.

g o o d  :)

I don't know, i wouldn't go through a map second time just for 100% secrets. If the secret has a fight in it, though, that's different. More gameplay is the best reward. That could make me come back with a fine tooth brush, and comb through the map to find it. 

Being locked out of secrets is totally fine with me. I actually find it funny whenever I notice the "closes after 30 seconds" sector special, especially if it leads to secret area. When the mapper doubles down on being a dick, it's charming

A common complaint about it is along the lines of "I rarely play a map more than once" which is sort of a subset/heavily overlapping set of "a map should be readily UV-maxable on the first try", the second of which I'm highly skeptical of, the first of which I sympathize with but also don't think people need to design their maps around.

I don't know how much missed secrets really compel people to come back and try a map again.  I definitely like not finding every secret, in some ways, but I'm someone who does like to often revisit maps and mapsets that really impact me.  Maybe too much.  I'm opposed in general to the idea that every secret should just kind of present itself and that the (occasional, still somewhat thought out) arcane bastard secret isn't cool to include as fodder for someone who likes an enduring mystery and trying to solve it, especially if there's some hint that the secret has some special action or visuals of its own going on.  I'm terrible at implementing secrets that fit in that space between barely feeling like a secret at all, and convoluted randomness that no sane person would think of, so I'm not exactly an authority on this but I know what I enjoy when playing at least.

I don't really like lockouts generally though and kind of think of them as a cheap way to do secreting to begin with, someone is not likely to just get it on the first try (or, if they do, they wouldn't have realized it was a secret anyway).  And even then, it's probably best to make it visible at the start, because otherwise the player may fumble around forever like "how do I open this", which doesn't add fun or mystery.  Scythe II MAP31 is a decent example of this at work, in a tiny canned map where there's what is bleedingly obviously the super secret exit behind what equally obviously is a grate door that will close if the player isn't fast enough.  It's still gonna trip people up the first try, and, well, I still spent a bunch of time trying in vain to open it, but it communicates itself reasonably well in the less-than-ideal circumstances of being hounded by those god damned evil marines

Missable secrets are amazing and I should put at least one in every map I make from this point onward.

I liked the way MAP02 of Eviternity 2 handled its missable/single activation secret. If you miss it, oh well - just restart and try again, since the map is a short and sweet affair. That secret is heavily telegraphed by the reward and the switch placement.

I don't do missable secrets. As much as I think "I should be able to UV-max every level blind (and maybe saveless)" is a toxic mindset that holds map creators to a useless and arbitrary standard, I don't like secrets that become unobtainable just because how dare the player not read the author's mind and recognize ahead of time that crossing that linedef would make a fast door down a long corridor behind them open exactly once and then close forever?

If there are to be such secrets, then at least make them not count as secrets, or make the way to achieve the secret obvious ahead of time.

Secrets are secrets.

If you get bent out of shape because you missed an optional area/item that is literally your problem.

1 hour ago, Stupid Bunny said:

"a map should be readily UV-maxable on the first try"

if i get to the third level of your wad with 100% kills, a decent amount of secrets and zero deaths, I get bored tbh.

honestly i'm the opposite of this mentality, if i'm not challenged I feel like my time is being wasted, its why I dislike some earlier wads that are overly easy to begin with.

4 minutes ago, bofu said:

I don't do missable secrets.

If I do use a missable secret, I probably won't flag it with sector type 9.

Really, shouldn't missable secrets be the only ones tagged with sector type 9? >:)

i love missable anything as long as you can easily gauge that its a missed-missable secret when you exit. ie, not on a 90-million hour long map where everyone forgets everything by the end. I dont think maps getting 100%'d on the first try is a valuable or reasonable metric to build by

I think it's silly to make one's work less accessible for the self-fart-sniffing reason of adding replayability when the replayability is added in such a lazy way. If I don't find something while playing a map, I'm probably never gonna know it's there and won't know that maybe I did miss something cool; in my mind it'll just be a closet with a soulsphere or berserk pack anyway so no big loss. On the off chance it was something cool, I'll just watch a video and skip to the part with the secret.

What resonates with me more is if I miss a secret because finding or unlocking it was really cool in itself, or if it genuinely provides something of interest, like a well thought out encounter. Setting one sector special and "gotta go fast" isn't very creative or compelling to me for a one-off secret unless the map itself is themed around the concept of going fast, or something adjacent.

That all said, if accessibility isn't one of your design goals, then go nuts. Mapping is an artform and there are no hard rules not meant to be broken.

I think it's more about making sure that not everyone has the same experience!

like the more weird optional timed stuff there is in your level the more doomer Choose Your Own Adventure scope you open up

and secrets are, like-it-or-not, an enticing part of that

I don't want to wade into the endless "blind-friendly" debate, but I do question whether doing this really adds replayability, and if so, whether it's worth the tradeoff.

If a secret is always obtainable, but just very well hidden, it would still add the same replayability potential, while people who go searching for it at the end of the level wouldn't be disappointed (and that wouldn't just be people who do it out of a weird compulsion, but also those who actively enjoy hunting for secrets). And obviously, regardless of whether or not the secret is locked after a certain point, if you find it right away then it's not going to add any replayability for you. Worse, a player going through the level a second time may still miss the secret and lose their chance again. If there's no indication that they did something wrong by, say, passing through a door, it's more likely to lead to frustration than a sense of "oh wow I didn't know this was here all along".

As an aside, in cases where the player gives up and looks it up in the editor/wiki, it literally doesn't matter anymore how obscure or how missable the secret was, because now they just know. I don't often do 'prepared' UVMAX runs of a level, but when I do I first check where the secrets are, and at that point they're effectively no longer secrets. That BFG locked behind three tiny hidden switches is now just a normal BFG I can get every run.

This whole discussion reminds me of Suikoden. For those who aren't familiar with it, it's an RPG series where each one has 108 recruitable characters. Getting all of them is not just required for 100% completion but also unlocks the 'true' ending. However, some characters are permanently missable. One of them requires you to speedrun the game, and many others are simply no longer available after a certain point in the story. Does that add replayability? Kind of, in the sense that if you want to fully complete the game you probably have to play it a second time. But is it actually fun? I don't think so, and certainly not more fun than if I could just solve the puzzles without a complete restart. Plus, it likely caused many players to use a guide on their first playthrough, robbing them of their enjoyment of finding things on their own, ultimately having the opposite effect.

Is it fair to compare a 15 minute Doom level to a 50 hour game? Not at all, but it's just an example of a case where, in my opinion, making content missable didn't add anything to the experience.

Just noclip through that door dude :)

for all the people who want "blind playthrough friendly" content.. why not just make it yourself? why not start some kind of community project for BlindDoom or something?

3 hours ago, roadworx said:

something that i've noticed people really, really despise more than anything else are secrets that the player can permanently get locked out of. it's a design utterly reviled and seen as being tantamount to mass murder...but personally, i think that opinion is a load of shit.

I mean tbf it does get annoying especially in a game like Wolf3D where you have pushwalls that can screw you over big time

But for Doom it could be a level quirk and seems "fine"

35 minutes ago, Fonze said:

I think it's silly to make one's work less accessible for the self-fart-sniffing reason of adding replayability when the replayability is added in such a lazy way. If I don't find something while playing a map, I'm probably never gonna know it's there and won't know that maybe I did miss something cool; in my mind it'll just be a closet with a soulsphere or berserk pack anyway so no big loss. On the off chance it was something cool, I'll just watch a video and skip to the part with the secret.

 

What resonates with me more is if I miss a secret because finding or unlocking it was really cool in itself, or if it genuinely provides something of interest, like a well thought out encounter. Setting one sector special and "gotta go fast" isn't very creative or compelling to me for a one-off secret unless the map itself is themed around the concept of going fast, or something adjacent.

 

That all said, if accessibility isn't one of your design goals, then go nuts. Mapping is an artform and there are no hard rules not meant to be broken.

who says that secrets that can lock you out have to be centered around going fast? they can also be about routing, guiding monsters to open doors for you, platforming, all sorts of stuff. you're just not being creative about it is all.

3 minutes ago, roadworx said:

guiding monsters to open doors for you

This would be quite hard to figure out, so probably not a good idea IMO

Unless you get a hint like you would in Totenkopf like ("This door can't be opened by the player")

I mean, Romero did it literally inside of the past month. I gotta say it's probably gonna feature more heavily, not less, moving forward. Did I like it then? Not personally, no, but I was playing SIGIL 2 on Ultra-violence live on my fifteenth hour of a 24 hour marathon stream with not much sleep and simply assumed that I was incapable of, like, comprehending Euclidean geometry, it didn't even occur to me they were 30-second missable secrets.

22 minutes ago, roadworx said:

guiding monsters to open doors for you

Tch, who would do that??

*looks at NEIS*

23 minutes ago, roadworx said:

guiding monsters to open doors for you

I actually might try this myself I love this idea

Also the thing in E1M4 where that raising floor is inaccessible if you don't get on right away after throwing the switch...just because it was in an IWAD doesn't make it a good idea automatically but it's another different approach that's fairly benign and self-communicating even if you cock it up the first time

7 minutes ago, The Doommer said:

This would be quite hard to figure out, so probably not a good idea IMO

Unless you get a hint like you would in Totenkopf like ("This door can't be opened by the player")

it's called a puzzle! you're supposed to think!!!

Nope. It's okay to play a level again to get everything the second time, in fact having barred secrets may facilitate replayability.