The Great Tyson Thread of 2016

Another certainly doable one is ksutra map14. If you camp around the central horseshoe structure, pretty much everything dies to infighting. Two cyberdemons and a spider mastermind need to be killed with berserk + 900 bullets. One cyberdemon and the spider can both be killed safely with the pistol. The last cyberdemon is in a decent location for punching (perhaps it makes sense to kill it first of all?). If you get very lucky with the infighting, bullets might last all the way (e.g. arachnotrons might kill the spider).

Gusta said:

I think that all ksutra maps have berserk (+ lot of power up) but I am afraid that it's too much of luxury and those maps are way too easy for these crazy guys :-)

Yeah, lots of turret monsters and blocking lines make life hard on the remaining maps though...

So, who can find applications for the impse glide? My humble conjecture is that at least one impossible map becomes trivially easy to do with the impse glide.

4shockblast's stunning cyber ass-punching tactics are also something that should be taken into serious consideration everywhere. Maybe similar approach can help dealing with some tricky arachnotrons and mancubi somewhere? Keep in mind that with revenant missiles we can distract almost any monster anywhere, even if it requires opening doors or ascending stairs. Too bad the homing missile does not go through teleports.
 

The Aqfaq Conjecture - doomwiki page needed

Some strat dumps and difficulty corrections for runs that I'm not likely to do at this point:

• Regarding perdgate map 29, the cyber stuck strats make it quite doable; you can get the cyber infighting with a revenant from above and get it stuck in a corner very easily. Rest of the map is not bad as you get a lot of bullets and infight opportunities. 25 still looks to be annoying as fuck at best (though short), and 30 still seems TAS only.
• I'd say Scythe map 27 is possible with the cyber strats. Most of the map is punchable, the one cyber in the library area is infightable with the revenant that's stuck on the key pillar near the exit room (although I couldn't get it stuck when I tried). The three cybers are also possible to get infighting with the secret soul sphere revenant, although that's a really long way to lure a rev rocket, and I can't do it consistently. It is possible to get them infighting with the rev across diagonally, though, and they have a hard time hitting it, so I suspect you could get all three of them distracted, then lure away the rev with a pistol shot without requiring too much luck. Also, I should note that the strafejump at the start is very useful here as it allows an easy archvile telefrag. Don't have anything new for the rest of the undone maps.

I also looked at Sunder Tyson about a year ago. I did 1 pretty easily, the other ones that look promising are 4 and 7. 4 is almost certainly possible, although you are likely to run out of bullets for snipers, so you might need some luck with infighting there. 7 is a rough one and doesn't have a ton of bullets, but you can infight a large portion of the map, you get a berserk, and one line skip allows you to avoid being locked in the second-to-last area, which gives you a lot more room for infighting. I'd still not label it as anything lower than INSANE+, but maybe it's not TAS only?

Hey guys, Hell Revealed II map 25 is actually very easy to tyson, if you have the patience. In the first area, everything will kill themselves for free. After the infights, shoot some spiders so that you can reach the pentagram teleport safely. In the next area, lure some imps out one by one and punch them to make more room to maneuver around the arch-viles and revenants. Then just maneuver around the arch-viles and revenants. Grab the megasphere and run through the next area straight to the teleport, and pick up some bullets on the way. At the red key room, get rid of the three free-roaming revenants by punching them one by one or by luring them to the barons who can kill them for you. After the three revenants are dead, we are completely safe, because of monster-blocking lines. If you survived this far, you can probably complete the map now with a pretty high success rate. Just let the chaingunners kill as many revenants as possible. Shoot the remaining revenants, release the arch-viles and harvest a ton of bullets. Let the hell knights kill the arch-vile in the watch tower. Shoot the three hell knights to make the watch tower safe. Next you must do a quick red key rush. Get the red key, release all the hell knights from the red door and run to the safety of the bridge. Let arch-viles kill as many hell knights as possible. Harvest more bullets as you see fit, but avoid getting hit by chaingunners. Barons kill the arch-viles in the pit for free. Nothing hard has been done so far, mostly just infights and bullet harvesting. After all arch-viles die, shoot the remaining hell knights, and then do a few rounds around the teleporters to get the yellow key. Do a few fast teleports through the pentagrams to initiate infights so that the cyberdemon kills everything. Open the yellow door and quickly run to the switch. Then run back where you came from. Now you can harvest even more bullets by opening and closing the yellow door. We can probably harvest more than 5000 bullets on the map. This means we can shoot all the spiders. There are monster-blocking lines everywhere, so we are completely safe, and the arch-vile can easily kill the cyber that blocks the switch, if we don't want to use bullets on the cyber. The rest is just some easy infights and cleaning up the remaining spiders. This map is actually easy, even though it seems impossible at the first glance. It will require patience, though, because the run will take about two hours with all the infights and bullet harvesting.

AV

17 DOABLE. Get cyber stuck.

There is a better way - it's very easy to safely punch cyber through gap in it's cage.

But is there realistic strat for pinky pit? Pistol them?

Agreed. AV 17 is easy. You can position yourself so that one of the chaingunners kills the cyber. The best method I found was to first let the cyber shoot some rockets at you, so that the chaingunners get aggroed. Do not attack, so that the barons remain asleep. No, wait. Actually, let the cyber kill the barons first. Then get the chainers aggroed to the cyber. It takes some easy grinding to succeed, but it is worth it so that you don't need to kill the barons yourself and it makes the start of the run much faster.

Yes, I think the slime pit pinkies need to be shot. The other pinkies can be punched with berserk after everything else have been killed.

My test run took about 90 minutes. Much shorter than I expected. I can do it sometime next year, if nobody has done it by then.

HRII Map11 is possible without any skips.

Just save invul and mega for last room.

Invul time is enough to punch all monsters except one of the two last avs.

But with mega (or even soul sphere) it's not a problem even if it resurrects something.

AV Map19 is quite j4rio-doable.

Arachnotron room is the only problematic part. Needs a lot of patience.

But second half of the map is easy. Cyber kills all the rest and get killed by the last av.

HRII Map11

Lol, it turned out preventing last room door closing is trivially easy, 100% relaible. No need to save anything.

Just go forward after the teleport. SR40 is more than enough.

I'll try to do it this week.

Great find, GrumpyCat. Interesting to see how you can manage with that map. It is not going to be easy even with that trick.

I filled in a rough estimate for most of the Kamasutra maps. Feel free to improve the accuracy of my estimations.

I spent about 6 hours on m219 and about 30 minutes on m220.

m219 is NOT very interesting IMO. Just slowly Berserk your way to the exit, what the deal; and the amount of bullets is very comfortable. However, I encountered a big showstopper: a lone mancubus, thing 200, enclosed in a 256X144 room with a lift going up to this room and a closed door behind the mancubus. In Eugene's Max demo it's at 5:45. I got to that manc 6 times, sometimes with >100% health and some blue armor left, and survived zero times. After that manc there are many more ways to die, but at least they are varied :)

m220 is harder IMO, much more interesting, meta-gamey, as a non-berserk map with not enough ammo. Aqfaq's demo helped in a way that I got pretty far on my very first try. But it is hard, I'm not interested in saving every single bullets while you still need good luck, especially with the cyber-arachnotron pair, you want the arachnotron to survive as long as possible. So I may be trying this once in a while, waiting for luck, but rather not spending too much time: too frustrating.

Update:

ALIEN VENDETTA
25 DOABLE. The map has 1325 monsters, but no worries. Just be careful who to release and when. All monsters pretty much cancel each other out. Monsters can't open fast doors, so we are completely safe. Cybers can be telefragged in the dark tunnel, if we need to. The last room is hard, but we can harvest bullets for that, if necessary. With invulnerability we can probably initiate infights, so that the arch-viles kill the three lava pit cybers. We can save the invulnerabilities for the hardest parts. My test run had all invulnerabilities still available to the very end. Estimated completion time will be less than three hours. Something like 2:30 would be a good time.

As for AV17, I'm not going to do it. I'll take a break.

What's a reliable method of chainsawing Arachnotrons? Their hitboxes are so awkward.. Any good demos to demonstrate? :)

I know nothing about that, but here is a demonstration of how to kill the cyber in AV map 17 in 1:30. Both chaingunners shoot it for great damage per second.

av17t-cyber-kill.zip

4 hours ago, Bloodite Krypto said:

What's a reliable method of chainsawing Arachnotrons? Their hitboxes are so awkward.. Any good demos to demonstrate? :)

Whenever I've tried to chainsaw an arachnotron, I rely on getting it stuck by getting "into" its hitbox. That allows you to chainsaw it continuously, so on average it should be faster than gradually whittling away at it, even though sometimes it takes a while to get it stuck. 

Here's a demonstration wad, demo, and video:

This one was really lucky/fast.

Whether you can get it stuck depends on where it is relative to the blockmap, and how you approach it. An expert (@RjY?) can describe the specific details. But it's possible to plan a setup for it and lure it to spots where it can be stuck, using floor textures or other landmarks to guide you.

Thank you for your detailed analysis @rdwpa your the best! :)

Keep aiming for outer parts of hitbox when further away, or directly into the center of its hitbox when you manage to get inside of it. Because chainsaw changes your angle after each successful hit, try constantly rotating to sides when sawing.

18 hours ago, rdwpa said:

An expert (@RjY?) can describe the specific details.

Thank you, I'll do my best☺. As noted there are two things to consider: blockmap squares and intercepts.

1. For collision purposes the arachnotron only exists in one blockmap square, that is the one containing its centre point. So to move inside the monster's bounding box you want its centre near to the edge of a square. You can then move inside the parts of it that are not in the same square. As you know, blockmap squares can be made visible on the automap by pressing 'g'.

2. Line attack (hitscan) collisions with a mobj are tested by intersection with one of the two imaginary diagonal lines across the opposing corners of the mobj. Thus for your saw (modelled as a 64-unit line attack from the player's centre) to make contact with the arachnotron it must reach far enough into it to touch a diagonal. As @j4rio notes, this is easier if you aim for the corners of the square, but unfortunately a successful hit resets your angle to point at the monster's centre.

In this automap view there is a ⊠ over each ▹ to show bounding boxes and intercept diagonals. So a bit cluttered, but hopefully you can see the arachnotron (white)'s centre point (where the intercepts cross) is just to the right (~1 pixel, unfortunately) of the dark blue blockmap division lines as the player (green) is attacking it from the left, allowing the player bounding box to overlap the arachnotron almost completely. You can also see the four red blood splats going diagonally across the intercepts.

chainsaw_v_arachnotron_at_specific_blockmap_offsets.wad

A small level with three arachnotrons trapped in 128x128 squares, the leftmost is aligned with the blockmap, the centre is 32 off from it, and the third is 64 units away; note the ease with which the latter can be chainsawed compared with the first two. A demo is included (-playdemo demo1).

6 minutes ago, RjY said:

(stuff)

I really like these demonstrations :D

While I was doing this run, I always think there's a spot for you to Chainsaw these hard-to-chainsaw monsters, so I always go around the SMM to search that spot, but I seems not. Do you mind doing a SMM version of this map?

14 hours ago, GarrettChan said:

Do you mind doing a SMM version of this map?

chainsaw_v_spidermastermind_at_specific_blockmap_offsets.wad

It seems to work best when you have the spider's centre point very close to the edge of one side of a blockmap square, but only one side, not near a corner.

I edited the first post by crossing out what is done (not by deleting, this way you can see previous assessments). Added mm12 which was forgotten. @Aqfaq, where are you? :)

Alright, i guess i'll state this thing straight away - i'm not a really good player and started attempting running tysons fairly recently (about several months), so i might make some silly mistakes mostly because of lack of experience. After some thinking i decided to share whatever notes i have on Eviternity, since i guess this thread lacks some modern wads.

So Eviternity adds some new enemies and some basic strategies i came up with against them:

Nightmare demon (i'll call them greenkies later on) - not too hard to punch, just a fastser and healthier pinky

Former captain (i'll call them green dudes later on) - couldn't really find a reliable punching pattern, infighting or handgunning is a preferable option.

Astral cacodemon - i didn't find a punching pattern at all, the worst enemy in context of tysoning. They are real infighting beasts though, so in some cases very usable.

Annihilator - no punching pattern at all. They shoot a rocket and have no blast resist at all, so forcing them to kill themselves is more than possible. Also, since annihilators are hitscanners, they infight among themselves, which they usually do and quite effectively.

Archangelus - final boss, has bunch of scary attacks, unpunchable.

MAPS:

1-4, 6, 10, 26 are done.
MAP 5 - No berserk or chainsaw, tight spaces, little room to maneuver. Seems DOABLE, but annoying.
MAP 7 - Fight with the hitscan might be annoying but a billion bullets, easy access to berserk and infighting opportunities might make this not that painful. Definitely falls into DOABLE.
MAP 8 - Easy access to berserk, but a lot of tiny spaces, specifically the red key area, a ton of hitscan and half of the map being a damaging floor are not very tyson friendly. Should be DOABLE, but the red key area needs some proper routing.
MAP 9 - This one starts with the chainsaw, but there is a berserk secret very close to the starting area. The map is huge, with a big portion of it covered in damaging floor. A lot of hitscan and generally annoying enemies.
Archviles at the exit are kinda annoying but not impossible. Luring them out or blocking should work. Should fall into DOABLE despite all that.
MAP 11 - Berserk is available nearly from the start, but oh god oh no, it's the worst dehacked enemy to tyson in the wad - astral cacos. Map also features green chaingunners, those are not super easy to deal with. There are enough bullets though. The path to the red key has a pretty hard encounter featuring an archvile, bunch of imps, pinkies and some green dudes - this is the hardest bit to tyson. There are some pillars, but not sure how to approach this fight. Falls into INSANE imo.
MAP 12 - No berserk or chainsaw. I'm not entirely sure if this is doable at all. Start of the map doesn't have a lot of bullets, and there is an astral caco, some regular cacos, bunch of hitscan, imps and pinkies/greenkies. The next encounter is an archvile, pain elemental, revenant, couple of green commandos and oh god, both of those are in very tight space . If you somehow get inside of a castle you get greeted by yet another archvile encounter. And after walking up the stairs you meet couple of annihilators, archvile, astral caco, hitscanners... i'd mark this one as INSANE/TAS.
MAP 13 - Start of the map is not that bad, there is an annoying archvile popping early, but the berserk is easily reachable. All the key fights are really hard to manage, the red key area has 3 archviles and a ton of imps in a cramped space and the yellow/blue key fight has a turret archvile with a ton of enemies, including the astrals, which makes it extra tough. Mancubi, greenkies, pinkies and revenants are not something to just shrug off though. And then there is an ending bit that releases a bunch of astrals, hitscan and imps. Should probably fall into INSANE/TAS category.
MAP 14 - Berserk is easily within reach pretty quickly. The cave the player starts in filled with monsters and yellow key area spanws even more, including astral cacos. They are probably possible to infight a lot? Not entirely sure about that bit. Red key fight is a classic timed circle-strafe arena, with archviles dropping at the very end. Encounters include astrals, arachnos, mancubi... The list of enemies is pretty long, survival would require some insane precision here, though i have gut feeling that there might be some cheese. Blue key fight feels similar to a previous one, but with more astrals and 2 waves of archviles, also featuring an annihilator. As an overall thing i'd say it's INSANE, but i think it's doable, compared to previous 2.
MAP 15 - No berserk, no chainsaw, can't say that ammo situation is that bad... But there are certainly a lot of enemies here. Big fight of the map is probably not that bad, just circle strafe and not get hit but lack of any sufficient weaponry makes it extremely tricky. The secret fight is probably the hardest bit - a crowd of revs supported by an archvile and bunch of astrals in a fairly tiny space. Not really sure how to deal with it at all. INSANE/TAS i'd say.
MAP 31 - Bless skillsaw for putting a berserk really close to the starting location. The problem is that nearly every encounter has an archvile and bunch of heavies. The first sinkhole trap is pretty nasty but should be doable, has some revs, greenkies and HKs. The entire rocky section has popping enemies here and there with some turret support around. I feel like tedious tysoning through this area might work nicely. The first encounter with the cyberdemon can be tricky however, little wiggle room and enemies on sides are annoying for tysoning purposes, also releases couple of archies later. Probably possible to force infighting with the cyber? After going through blue it's possible (or actually nessecary in that kind of a run) to telefrag a cyber and then to farm as much bullets as needed looking at that infighting festival down there. I'd say this one falls into DOABLE, but still hard.
MAP 32 - I honestly have no idea. Can't provide much insight on that one. There are a lot of bullets, 7 berserks (with closest one being in the purple building) routing options are pretty much infinite. I'll try to figure out something later, but i have a feeling that a full tyson run of this will take 3 full work days or so.
MAP 16 - No berserk or chainsaw. Fight in a circular arena seems annoying to do, since there is a annihilator and there is no reliable way to force him to do some infighting or to force him to kill himself until the pillar lowers. After pillar lowers it doesn't look very complicated to force infighting. Collecting all the keys will release archies in the middle arena without cover, so that will require some sort of a cheese as well. should fall into DOABLE.
MAP 17 - No berser or chainsaw. Might be possible to befriend the starting cyber and deal with the enemies using him? Not entirely sure what is the best way to deal with everything in that map. But i have no clue how to approach the dropdown fight, seems fairly hard. Probably INSANE, not sure.
MAP 18 - Berserk in not that far away from the start, big portion of the map is damaging floor and a lot of hitscan. Map in not really linear so there should be quite a lot of options to do routing. Seems like there are bunch of annoying encounters involving astros and annihilator, but i didn't really look too much into this one.
MAP 19 - This map is a beast. Not a lot of health, a lot of hitscan and a general amount of 809 enemies. I honestly have no clue how to approach it since it's a gigantinc but linear map. Berserk is not really at the starting position, so it takes time to survive until it. On the other hand it might be worth it to try rushing to it, since there are teleporters after clearing the map? Not really sure what the right approach would be if someone ever attempts this one. INSANE/TAS until some cheese or good strategy is discovered.
MAP 20 - No berserk, no chainsaw. A ton of bullets though, but map features a lot of hitscan, damaging floors, heavies, a telefraggabale cyberdemon... Red room encounter seems to be self-clearable but extremely random on all phases, there is a lot of hitscan and while they generally kill each other, they also tend to kill the player in the process. Also most of the cacos survive, so maybe it's possible to clear most of the map using those? Then there is all the stuff behind the blue door... Yeah i'm not sure, probably INSANE/TAS.
MAP 21 - No berserk, no chainsaw. Seems to be quite an infightfest in the first portion of the map, so with some proper management this bit should be passable? Getting into the cave releases a bunch of
enemies and an archvile in a tight space. It's possible not to wake him up if you don't shoot and there are 4 switches to hit to get out, so probably a good idea to run away before all is dead? Next encounter has a vile with a pinkie wall, not sure how to approach that. I'd say probably the way to do is to realease a cyber at the end and let him handle most of the stuff, but it's tricky. INSANE/TAS for now.
MAP 22 - I'd just mark it as TAS. There is a berserk in pink slime area, but even getting there is extremely hard, and on top of that the berserk is guarded by a cyberdemon. I honestly have no clue on this one.
MAP 23 - 2 Berserks on the map, one is fairly close, but the player has to get trough an archvile with pinkies/greenkies, and an arachno blocks the path to berserk perfectly, so this bit needs some strategy. Entire map is tight space with barely any wiggle room. I'd put this one into INSANE.
MAP 24 - Chainsaw and berserk are available. Berserk is very close to starting point in a secret. Encounter with 2 archviles in a dark room might be a scary, but should be doable with proper management. Road up until red key seems doable, but i have no clue how to deal with 2 archviles in a corridor without real cover. Maybe backtracking to previous location will work? The fight after that has quite a lot of enemies, including more archviles with a lot of corpses. The corridor gets flooded with greenkies and revenants at an instant, so not sure how to deal with that either. It might be possible to lure everything outside for better crowd control? But still, getting outside through that crowd seems like quite a challenge. The encounter in a vine area seems alright if imps are cut to size. Not sure how to deal with the last fight with revs, cybers and archies. Invul is available for it, but i'm not sure if it's going to last long enough to deal with all of those. Should fall into INSANE, i think.
MAP 25 - No berserk or chainsaw. The map is relatively small, has a lot of ammo, just dogde everything and don't forget to kill an arachnotron that blocks a teleport for bunch of enemies. DOABLE.
MAP 27 - Berserk can be lowered on one of the progression switches. Seems like the route is something like lowering everything and watching the monsters infight? The bit with the cyber and acrhviles looks tricky but cheesable, maybe there is some blockmap trick possible, not entirely sure, haven't tested yet. Also there needs some strategy with the mastermind at the end, but infighting is probably an option. Should fall into DOABLE, i think.

UPDATE: Done, the mastermind got stunlocked by some random revenant.
MAP 28 - No berserk or chainsaw. I did some attempts on this one, but very unreliable MFB11 infighting got me a bit burned out. The route was to use the cybers on both sides of the arena to kill everything and then move to the main fight and just dodge all the stuff and kill what's left with the pistol. Should fall into DOABLE, but needs very precise infighting control and good rng.

UPDATE: Turned out to be cheeseable with the teleporter.
MAP 29 - No berserk or chainsaw. Really not sure how to entirely deal with that one either, can't give much comment. Small arena with bunch of imps and HKs supported by 2 cybers looks scary as heck, though the enemies from the outside can enter it, so this might be used somehow, i guess? Then there is dark cave section that i have no clue how to deal with at all, there are way too many greenkies and astrals.
The final fight is cheesable by staying in the secret. Probably INSANE/TAS.
MAP 30 - No berserk or chainsaw. Archangelus can infight, and there is a pacifist demo that gets this guy stuck in bunch of enemies. There is still some shit to kill afterwards, so probably DOABLE?

Those notes i wrote after scouting around in all those maps, so they are pretty disorganized, i tried to compile all of it into something readable, not sure if i succeeded, i hope someone can add something to that. Also, i haven't checked other categories demos, so it's not as in-depth as it could've been. I'll probably drop a similar post on Valiant, but i need to collect the notes i've left in my brain and on my pc, so it's going to take time.

2 hours ago, Petyan said:

30 - No berserk or chainsaw. Archangelus can infight, and there is a pacifist demo that gets this guy stuck in bunch of enemies. There is still some shit to kill afterwards, so probably DOABLE?

The level ends after Archangelus dies, you have like 10 seconds or something to take out whatever remains. I don't know how realistic that is, probably not very, but it only takes 2-3 hell knights to kill him. Punching out the rest is a tall order in itself, and Archangelus only summons monsters when taking damage, so at best you can replace the preplaced hell knights with new ones that wouldn't count toward the total. Alternatively, pray he summons an archvile and he hits that, so the archvile continually attacks him. I guess you could always watch the health carefully, let it infight with as much as possible/kill all the Hks and then pistol it... Either way, not a fun to do. Neat write up overall.

10 hours ago, Decay said:

I guess you could always watch the health carefully, let it infight with as much as possible/kill all the Hks and then pistol it... Either way, not a fun to do.

Yep, ended up running in the outer circle for half an hour (usind rewinds/saves) and ran out of bullets. Have to agree, it's not a fun thing to do at all, just a grind for the right rng, unless some cheese is discovered.

For what it's worth that pacifist run was about 630 attempts, about 3 hours. You can probably follow the same general run and just do more to whittle down the Hks left at the end. It gets super hectic in mode 2 for sure, but that's probably going to be the best bet if you let all the HKs die and then just make sure you have enough bullets left for archangelus; don't use them on anything but his second form after he's killed everything else.

Here is some info that might be worth sharing: the tyson demo with most homing missile abuse is no longer that of map 23 from Scythe, but map 23 from Bourgeios Deathmatch, done by player Decay.  

Hey, @GrumpyCat, if you don't mind answering. did you managed to tyson Map 11 from Hell Revealed II? Any hard parts? Do you think it is possible at all? 

No, but I experimented with it and did it with two saves. Until the red door it's straightforward, when there are three problems: cyber, crowd with two AVs and final room with closing door and 1+2 AVs. Tried some routes without much success, except for the most boring one. Here it is.

Collect 400 bullets before cyber room (easy as you can infight spiders with barons and usually revenants kill mastermind). Take invulnerability and punch cyber several times then punch all monsters on upper floor. Drop down. Pistol cyber (there are safe spots, also cyber often stuck in door frame). Press button, release monsters, go to upper floor. Repeatedly run out of the cyber room and back, eventually AVs would be killed (mostly by splash damage from themselves). Then go down and punch as much as hp allows (I suck at punching and this was the hardest part). It's easy to avoid the door trap after teleport: just straferun inside immediately after door is open, if you cross it before it fully opened it stuck forever. However monsters below can easily spoil it by hitting you with projectiles, so you should lure them to appendix opposite of cyber room. Grab megasphere and kill the rest. Then run inside final room, hit switch and run out, all the way back to the red door. Use door to kill three AVs by infighting and then punch the rest, tedious but safe. Very doable.