DOOM BBS Add-Ons: An 800+ WAD mega dump

24 minutes ago, iddq_tea said:

... and I even managed to find some that somehow predate Doom (I did not write down which file it was, but one was created in 24-07-1990...

I'm very curious how that would work. Is it possible to change the date a file says it was created like that and, if so, was that a mistake or did someone think it'd be funny to confuse people like that 30 years later?

 

 

3 minutes ago, Spineapple tea said:

I'm very curious how that would work. Is it possible to change the date a file says it was created like that and, if so, was that a mistake or did someone think it'd be funny to confuse people like that 30 years later?

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Also, cursed image.

 

It's very much possible to do that but my guess is it was just an ancient file that got modified in time for the CD's release. Who knows?

Maybe it's an error in the filesystem? I've seen Windows create system files that are dated for days, even years in the future.

8 minutes ago, alextriforce549 said:

Maybe it's an error in the filesystem? I've seen Windows create system files that are dated for days, even years in the future.

I don't remember what the file extension was, it's entirely possible that I accidentally counted some irrelevant file when trying to find out the range of dates these add-ons fall into.

3 hours ago, Spineapple tea said:

I'm very curious how that would work. Is it possible to change the date a file says it was created like that and, if so, was that a mistake or did someone think it'd be funny to confuse people like that 30 years later?

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Also, cursed image.

 

There are however WAD files that were made before any editors existed, such as Origwad. Others even changed the IWAD, such as Commercial DOOM.WAD v1.0 Extra-Hard which is also the earliest Doom mod.

 

Since those were made by hex editing, i'd love to see more of these ultra early maps.

 

3 hours ago, alextriforce549 said:

Maybe it's an error in the filesystem? I've seen Windows create system files that are dated for days, even years in the future.

Old files tend to bit-rot, so dates may geet screwy

My best guess on the file date issue:

Author of file had a bad CMOS battery on their computer where time and date

got wiped between time they were using their computer and LAST time they

turned their computer on. POST time on boot is set to a default beginning date

encoded in the BIOS. User ignores the part where computer spits out the blurb

about "time and date not set", and simply hits enter twice to get past this silly error

screen they're (by now) sick of seeing.

 

So, let's just say that that default date was July 1st, 1990. User powers on their

computer and keeps it running. Through the course of the month, they compile

this wad file in question here. The file gets date stamped 7-24-90 or twenty-four

days since user turned his computer on.

 

I'm not saying I KNOW this happened, just offering as a VERY likely possibility.

 

I played some of these wads coop with my gf. I'll put 2 screenshots per wad.
- - -

1STHELL.WAD
E1M8
Top tier stuff... My jaw dropped when I pressed button.

- - -

1_ON_1.WAD

E2M4

We physically couldn't beat it: couldn't find a way to progress. Architecture is very goofy but lamps scene is surprisingly romantic and unusually calm for Doom

- - -

FIFFY.WAD

E1M1

Really bad visuals, but plays pretty fine.

- - -
FIFFY2.WAD

E1M1? (I don't remember)
VERY GOOD LOOKING LEVEL, NOT JOKING. Plays good, but final scene kicked my balls because I was playing on keyboard.

- - -

WEDGE.WAD

E1M1?

 

Looks the best among these 5. Plays also good, has cool progression and architecture.

 

@iddq_tea  I own this cd !! Had it in May 1996. Excellent collection of wads for Doom. Some wad collections are in here too namely Dmatch1 (Dm_x.zip), Ep4b, Ep5a, e13 & Deathm. @Doomlover77  

Edited June 12, 2023 by Doomlover77

@Doomlover77 Yo! That's awesome!

 

@bobstremglav I agree FIFFY2 is one of the good ones in the mix. No idea what's going on in that first screenshot but I love it, lol.

Thanks for mentioning this on Romero's stream. Will take a look.

Nice find!

Post of the year right there, @deathz0r. This kind of work is among the most useful stuff that comes out of the community. Together with @iddq_tea and @Never_Again i wanna thank you for the colossal work on display here. I know that scouring through Usenet posts is a jumble, so seeing this all so neatly out on display. Stuff like this needs to be covered on the Wiki (As i did for atleast Knee-Deep In The DEU because that mapset was rather influential on mappers and players alike) and/or those old programs need to be on /idgames. They cover the earliest history of Doom, so are therefore incredibly worthwhile.

 

As expected, i have comments for discussion.

• When i made my initial statement, this was under the impression that several early WADS were indeed hex-edited - Your post proves this isn't the case.
• I am aware of some of the programs you mention like Jumble and MDE, but not to the extension you have followed this through.
  • I swear i saw Jumble 2.0 once, i remember it being on cd.textfiles.com but gosh darn it, this was from where i felt a randomiser wasn't really that special. Oh, the times!
• I managed to get MDE working, but its really ancient, haha. I could atleast snap a screencap of it.
  • I notice that both DOPE and MDE start off with the same usage prompt.
• I also managed to get DOPE running. It can only edit E1M1, and yet it crashes with a ERROR opening dump/THINGS. DOPE is definitely the most primitive out of the stuff tried
• Geddit is in the OP post, but since you made a zip with early editors, perhaps you could chuck in Geddit and NewDEU 4.0?
  • GEDDIT surprisingly is a Windows application but i can't run this at all, not even with Windows95 compatibility mode in play. I think this needs a geniune OS (as in: Not with compatibility etc)
• Never_Again mentions several times that some early wads were hex-edited. I can't find the exact post but i remember that people used to create custom programs/scripts to generate the needed data structures to read out a WAD (and manipulate it). DOPE definitely would qualify as such, but i am more interested in those scripts that automate the hex-editing process as these are among the earliest examples of manipulation. Chances are high that these were never intended for public consumption and/or are the programs you have just listed, but i wonder if there is something like a .bat or .com script that could pull off basic manipulation.
  • I have to say though, Dooze's editor seems pretty impressive for what it is because it is literally built out of the Unofficial Doom Specs. As such, this and other programs are hugely interesting for the wiki.
• I do have this old link: http://cd.textfiles.com/aventheaven2/WINDOWS/MISC/DE_242/
• BATTLE.ZIP is something worth noting, because it should be clarified more that before the first original levels appeared, randomized or edited official levels were the law of the land. It is thus good that you all are covering this base from start to finish. I just wonder how BATTLE.ZIP was made though considering. This ties in with my interest for the idea of simple .com scripts that could manipulate the WAD file.
• MDE can also be found here, along with DoomEDIT.
• In fact, CD.Textfiles.Com gives a lot of old Doom stuff that is archived. In this case i searched on Doomed.

Let me hear your views. We need more of this stuff going on.

7 hours ago, deathz0r said:

 

There's several incorrect assumptions going on here. I've been doing a lot of work going through shovelware CDs archiving and documenting as many Doom editors that I've stumbled upon - I'm still in the process of trying to find (close to) original dates for ZIPs, preferably copies that aren't mangled by various BBSes needing to throw their ads into ZIPs.

 

 

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

DOOMEDIT.ZIP

 

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Redneckerz

9 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

Post of the year right there, @deathz0r. This kind of work is among the most useful stuff that comes out of the community. Together with @iddq_tea and @Never_Again i wanna thank you for the colossal work on display here. I know that scouring through Usenet posts is a jumble, so seeing this all so neatly out on display. Stuff like this needs to be covered on the Wiki (As i did for atleast Knee-Deep In The DEU because that mapset was rather influential on mappers and players alike) and/or those old programs need to be on /idgames. They cover the earliest history of Doom, so are therefore incredibly worthwhile.

Thanks, appreciate it! It's amusing that this rabbit hole I fell in stemmed from a stupid idea of a joke map revolving around "I wonder which map editors will run on a 286" since I randomly noticed that RMB only uses conventional memory. The number of somewhat unique editors (I'm including DEEP 6.xx and DETH 2.63 as separate from DEU, and DoomCAD 5.5 and dCAD are very separate from each other) that can build maps from scratch was higher than expected - five for DOS and six for Windows 3.1. A few of those (DEU 5.21, DETH, Geoff Allan's DoomED 4.2 and GDR Doom Editor) required recompiling the source code for 286 instructions since the shipped binaries require 386 instructions.

 

I definitely agree that it needs to be covered on the Wiki and should also be on /idgames. Zipped sources (without BBS ads) are strongly preferred over sources that are unzipped - I've found DETH 2.63 on a single CD (Total Ruin) unzipped and with a flattened folder structure, which made it impossible to run as-is without fixing the folder structure. Thankfully other 2.x and 3.x versions were helpful for fixing that.

 

I intend to make a thread as a sister thread for the WAD Archaeology thread detailing how all aspects of Doom modding had evolved sometime later this year. Fun random fact - there's no less than seven hacks to DEU (all from diferent authors) that replace Doom 1 support with Heretic and another five for Doom 2, and I'm not even counting DEEP or DETH.

9 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

Let me hear your views. We need more of this stuff going on.

Alright, let's do this!

9 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

• I swear i saw Jumble 2.0 once, i remember it being on cd.textfiles.com but gosh darn it, this was from where i felt a randomiser wasn't really that special. Oh, the times!

I'm not surprised, Jumble wasn't a high-priority find for me and I ignored constantly seeing 3.0 until I stumbled upon 1.02.

9 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

• I notice that both DOPE and MDE start off with the same usage prompt.
• I also managed to get DOPE running. It can only edit E1M1, and yet it crashes with a ERROR opening dump/THINGS. DOPE is definitely the most primitive out of the stuff tried

Most likely a coincidence with DOPE and MDE. Looking at the text file for DOPE101.ZIP, I'm increasingly suspicious about the file date for both versions of DOPE, given that DMSPEC10.TXT is dated 21st January 1994 and the DOPE text file mentions roggerffff@aol.com in the credits section, who was the original author of the unofficial Doom specs. Again, need to cross-reference with USENET on whether there is earlier discussion.

9 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

• In fact, CD.Textfiles.Com gives a lot of old Doom stuff that is archived. In this case i searched on Doomed.

The biggest issue I have with cd.textfiles.com is that it does not preserve the file date, and when I first started this I was downloading ZIPs from direct HTTP links so I need to go back and try and get file dates that are more correct. ISOs are the most reliable source, as ZIPs can have file dates for folders that are the creation of the ZIP file.

9 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

• Geddit is in the OP post, but since you made a zip with early editors, perhaps you could chuck in Geddit and NewDEU 4.0?
• GEDDIT surprisingly is a Windows application but i can't run this at all, not even with Windows95 compatibility mode in play. I think this needs a geniune OS (as in: Not with compatibility etc)

Geddit is a Windows 3.1 app, requires 386 instructions but doesn't appear to require Win32s. I've found v02, v03 and v09 - v06 is the last public version that I've yet to find.

 

NewDEU 4.0 was the last non-beta release I was looking for, I can safely say that all versions of DEU have been preserved, including a few betas - the most significant of which is DEU5BETA.ZIP, which is dated 17th of March 1994 and is the earliest known example of a functional node builder. Unfortunately, I've only found it on a single CD (Supergames Volume 2, thankfully zipped) and I can't determine exactly which beta it is - it's 100% not Beta 4, and I'm 95% certain it's not Beta 3 based on DIAMOND.DOC from DIAMOND1.WAD and DIAMOND2.WAD, as this specific beta lacks the ability to create a level from scratch though you can easily delete all of the level data by editing an existing map.

 

Anyway, attached both for now even though I don't like that some of the ZIPs have wrong file dates.

9 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

• Never_Again mentions several times that some early wads were hex-edited. I can't find the exact post but i remember that people used to create custom programs/scripts to generate the needed data structures to read out a WAD (and manipulate it). DOPE definitely would qualify as such, but i am more interested in those scripts that automate the hex-editing process as these are among the earliest examples of manipulation. Chances are high that these were never intended for public consumption and/or are the programs you have just listed, but i wonder if there is something like a .bat or .com script that could pull off basic manipulation.

I've seen no evidence of this apart from the usual suspects (ORIGWAD, CROSS, GEOFF, maybe SWELL?) - I've been spending the past week or so hunting down all WADs up until 30th April 1994 across almost everything listed in the DoomWiki and @thestarrover's uploads with a simple date filter using Total Commander. It's surprising how many WADs can be found on several CDs but yet their text file can only be found on one or two CDs. DMGRAV has been noted in the WAD Archaeology thread, but I've found no text file accompanying it.

 

On that note, massive shoutout to @Mad Butcher for this post as that helped confirm that the uploads were preserving folders containing editors, which I care a lot more about at this point in time:

 

9 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

• BATTLE.ZIP is something worth noting, because it should be clarified more that before the first original levels appeared, randomized or edited official levels were the law of the land. It is thus good that you all are covering this base from start to finish. I just wonder how BATTLE.ZIP was made though considering. This ties in with my interest for the idea of simple .com scripts that could manipulate the WAD file.

DEU 3.01 is likely for BATTLE.ZIP, though admittedly I haven't spend much time with these thing-only editors apart from "yep, this runs on a XT/286". DTEDIT seems like a possibility as well.

 

A fun bit of trivia - I have currently identified 133 out of 361 unique PWADs (non-matching SHA256 sums) created up until 30th April 1994 (including compilation WADs, plus nine with unconfirmed dates potentially stretching to May 1994) that are modified ID levels. Good rule of thumb is that I can't find a text file, it's more likely to be an IWAD edit. The following IWAD edits contain node edits:

 

GEOFF.WAD - E1M1, 22nd March 1994, 60014 bytes

AWR1L1.WAD - E1M1, 24th March 1994, 57668 bytes

BRIAN3L1.WAD - E3M1, 26th March 1994, 27165 bytes

DEADLY21.WAD - E2M1, 27th March 1994, 56789 bytes

D.WAD - E2M9, 29th March 1994, 24878 bytes

STEVE1.WAD - E1M1, 31st March 1994, 60409 bytes

E2M1.WAD (from BOBWORLD.ZIP) - E2M1, 1st April 1994, 51650 bytes

TLHE2L1.WAD - E1M1 (warp to E2M1), 6th April 1994, 87992 bytes

DMATCH.WAD - E1M1, 17th April 1994, 56182 bytes

ABC.WAD - E3M8, 18th April 1994, 23647 bytes

E1M1-HAX.WAD - E1M1, 18th April 1994, 88623 bytes

MIC.WAD - E1M1, 18th April 1994, 59584 bytes

STRANGE.WAD - E2M9, 20th April 1994, 22647 bytes

WARPED.WAD - E1M1, 21st April 1994, 53358 bytes

DMINATOR.WAD - don't think I need to explain this one :)

DEATHMAT.WAD - E1M1, 26th April 1994, 92078 bytes

MY.WAD - E1M1 (warp to E2M1), 28th April 1994, 60943 bytes

 

Out of those, GEOFF.WAD, AWR1L1.WAD and WARPED.WAD are the most interesting - GEOFF for being included with DoomED 2.42, AWR1L1.WAD because the text file mentions it was made with NewDEU 4.3, and WARPED.WAD for being included with WADFUN10.ZIP. MIC.WAD has the most warped geometry out of all of those listed above.

 

Finally, I made a mistake with my earlier post - the WAD from 17th February 1994 is an edit of E1M1, and it is included with Renegade Graphics DoomED v0.9.

 

EDIT: Another thing I forgot to mention, the one series of IWAD edits that has been incredibly elusive is "Hell's Bells" by Scott Adams, which is mentioned in the text file for the "Into the Fire" IWAD edit series and seems to be edits of all E1 maps. I've only found a single map (E1M2) that has been renamed to FREE.WAD within DM-SVT.ZIP which refers to Hell's Bells as "MoreDOOM" instead and has a file date that seems plausible (26th February 1994, Into the Fire is dated 1st or 6th March 1994 depending on the source). However, taking a closer look at it in SLADE most of the lumps are renamed to REJECT for whatever reason, but this is strangely consistent with all of Into the Fire.

deu_collection.zip

geddit_collection.zip

Edited September 15, 2023 by deathz0r : Hell's Bells

I better reply now that i am on a space where i can split quotes.

@deathz0r awesome post yet again and having DEU complete (including DEU 2.00, which apparently at this stage is just a THINGS editor?) is great stuff.

 

Onto your post.

 

12 hours ago, deathz0r said:

Thanks, appreciate it! It's amusing that this rabbit hole I fell in stemmed from a stupid idea of a joke map revolving around "I wonder which map editors will run on a 286" since I randomly noticed that RMB only uses conventional memory. The number of somewhat unique editors (I'm including DEEP 6.xx and DETH 2.63 as separate from DEU, and DoomCAD 5.5 and dCAD are very separate from each other) that can build maps from scratch was higher than expected - five for DOS and six for Windows 3.1. A few of those (DEU 5.21, DETH, Geoff Allan's DoomED 4.2 and GDR Doom Editor) required recompiling the source code for 286 instructions since the shipped binaries require 386 instructions.

It would be great to have a timeline of these, from the earliest THINGS editor to the first editor that could actually make a level. Never_Again stated that this was DoomED 2.20, but that hasn't appeared on PC (right?) and DEU initially didn't make full levels, correct? (Wiki states DEU 5.0 was the first all-in-one editor including node builder)

12 hours ago, deathz0r said:

I definitely agree that it needs to be covered on the Wiki and should also be on /idgames.

So, how would you want to go on about with this? My initial thought was to craft a History of Doom Editing article on the Wiki, and together with that, /idgames supplied links to these files. The latter is perhaps a bit of a slippery slope because of what we can put up on /idgames. Many of these editors are by authors either inactive in Doom, or perhaps passed away. I am not sure if the historic value of a piece of software overrides what an author may or may not intend in its license (IANAL).

12 hours ago, deathz0r said:

 

I intend to make a thread as a sister thread for the WAD Archaeology thread detailing how all aspects of Doom modding had evolved sometime later this year. Fun random fact - there's no less than seven hacks to DEU (all from diferent authors) that replace Doom 1 support with Heretic and another five for Doom 2, and I'm not even counting DEEP or DETH.

That alone is noteworthy for the DEU article in general. I was aware of edits such as RooEdit for Meridian59 (Based off WinDEU) , but that there were far reaching hacks to DEU to enable support for more things is far more than i would have thought.

I hope you allow me to skip over some parts of your post. Its not that i don't care, i do! But i have comments and questiosn for other parts :P

12 hours ago, deathz0r said:

Most likely a coincidence with DOPE and MDE. Looking at the text file for DOPE101.ZIP, I'm increasingly suspicious about the file date for both versions of DOPE, given that DMSPEC10.TXT is dated 21st January 1994 and the DOPE text file mentions roggerffff@aol.com in the credits section, who was the original author of the unofficial Doom specs. Again, need to cross-reference with USENET on whether there is earlier discussion.

So given your earlier timeline, we can reasonably conclude that DOPE was the first external editor other than Id's DoomED that could alter something from the WAD file.

12 hours ago, deathz0r said:

NewDEU 4.0 was the last non-beta release I was looking for, I can safely say that all versions of DEU have been preserved, including a few betas - the most significant of which is DEU5BETA.ZIP, which is dated 17th of March 1994 and is the earliest known example of a functional node builder.

Almost 2 weeks before the official DEU 5 release. I don't know about you, but i have a hunch (based on only the fact that so many editors existed before this time frame) that there might be something earlier (as in: with a functional nodesbuilder) around. This would go against the status quo that DEU is the first all-in-one editor, i am just saying.

 

12 hours ago, deathz0r said:

I've seen no evidence of this apart from the usual suspects (ORIGWAD, CROSS, GEOFF, maybe SWELL?) - I've been spending the past week or so hunting down all WADs up until 30th April 1994 across almost everything listed in the DoomWiki and @thestarrover's uploads with a simple date filter using Total Commander. It's surprising how many WADs can be found on several CDs but yet their text file can only be found on one or two CDs. DMGRAV has been noted in the WAD Archaeology thread, but I've found no text file accompanying it.

Sadly even the usual suspects lack any info in regards to what editors were used, beyond the timestamps in which DEU was released - So it is indirect evidence. Again, i love to see the original files used to make ORIGWAD/CROSS/GEOFF, but i am afraid this is likely only in private hands.

12 hours ago, deathz0r said:

DEU 3.01 is likely for BATTLE.ZIP, though admittedly I haven't spend much time with these thing-only editors apart from "yep, this runs on a XT/286". DTEDIT seems like a possibility as well.

This one gets me confused however - You did say it was the earliest WAD around, beating ORIGWAD and being an Id-level replacement. If DEU5BETA was the earliest DEU with a node builder, how was this made? I reckon some part of it was done with DEU 3 or DTEDIT, but what about the node generation part? Back at BATTLE.ZIP's release, there wasn't any available (Considering DEU5BETA followed over a month later). Was this generated by hand? And if so, how?

12 hours ago, deathz0r said:

A fun bit of trivia - I have currently identified 133 out of 361 unique PWADs (non-matching SHA256 sums) created up until 30th April 1994 (including compilation WADs, plus nine with unconfirmed dates potentially stretching to May 1994) that are modified ID levels. Good rule of thumb is that I can't find a text file, it's more likely to be an IWAD edit. The following IWAD edits contain node edits:

 

Out of those, GEOFF.WAD, AWR1L1.WAD and WARPED.WAD are the most interesting - GEOFF for being included with DoomED 2.42, AWR1L1.WAD because the text file mentions it was made with NewDEU 4.3, and WARPED.WAD for being included with WADFUN10.ZIP. MIC.WAD has the most warped geometry out of all of those listed above.

I found a list the other day that detailed BATTLE.ZIP and other WADS - IT was on PC Zone, August 1994. The first PC Zone that covered Doom WADS. There are ISO's out there, so i reckon you know this already? I don't have the link at hand sadly (it is at home)

12 hours ago, deathz0r said:

EDIT: Another thing I forgot to mention, the one series of IWAD edits that has been incredibly elusive is "Hell's Bells" by Scott Adams, which is mentioned in the text file for the "Into the Fire" IWAD edit series and seems to be edits of all E1 maps. I've only found a single map (E1M2) that has been renamed to FREE.WAD within DM-SVT.ZIP which refers to Hell's Bells as "MoreDOOM" instead and has a file date that seems plausible (26th February 1994, Into the Fire is dated 1st or 6th March 1994 depending on the source). However, taking a closer look at it in SLADE most of the lumps are renamed to REJECT for whatever reason, but this is strangely consistent with all of Into the Fire.

deu_collection.zip

geddit_collection.zip

That is very interesting. Why would one do that?
I also realized (and i am sure you do too) that GEOFF.WAD and SWELL.WAD contain a PLATFORM lump. The accompanying text file (again, not at home) gives reason why, but i can't seem to find what its effect is.

40 minutes ago, Redneckerz said:

I found a list the other day that detailed BATTLE.ZIP and other WADS - IT was on PC Zone, August 1994. The first PC Zone that covered Doom WADS. There are ISO's out there, so i reckon you know this already? I don't have the link at hand sadly (it is at home)

PC Zone October 1994 CD

LEVEL1.wad is in the "MOREWADS" folder.

Unfortunately it is not one of the competition entries, so the author's name is not listed on the magazine

Edited September 15, 2023 by thestarrover

53 minutes ago, thestarrover said:

PC Zone October 1994 CD

LEVEL1.wad is in the "MOREWADS" folder.

Unfortunately it is not one of the competition entries, so the author's name is not listed on the magazine

Here is the source by the way that lists BATTLE.ZIP as being on PC Zone August 1994. It also lists several modified IWAD levels.

9 minutes ago, Redneckerz said:

Here is the source by the way that lists BATTLE.ZIP as being on PC Zone August 1994. It also lists several modified IWAD levels.

I know that list. I posted it some time ago in the DOOM Archaeology: The First 25 WADs topic.

Unfortunately the PC Zone August 1994 issue doesn't come with a cd but with a floppy disk, as you can see here and here.

It seems that there are some mistakes in that list :)

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, thestarrover said:

I know that list. I posted it some time ago in the DOOM Archaeology: The First 25 WADs topic.

Unfortunately the PC Zone August 1994 issue doesn't come with a cd but with a floppy disk, as you can see here and here.

It seems that there are some mistakes in that list :)

 

 

 

Yeah this was i found out yesterday :P That sucks so bad.
In either case, i am very interested in getting these old maps and progs a rightful resting place, so we can complete the historic cycle of what was first.

Just now, Redneckerz said:

Yeah this was i found out yesterday :P That sucks so bad.
In either case, i am very interested in getting these old maps and progs a rightful resting place, so we can complete the historic cycle of what was first.

Just a moment: I read just now the cover of the magazine and there was TWO version of the August 1994 issue: one with a floppy and one with a CD. I never noticed it! O_O

I never found that CD!

2 minutes ago, thestarrover said:

Just a moment: I read just now the cover of the magazine and there was TWO version of the August 1994 issue: one with a floppy and one with a CD. I never noticed it! O_O

I never found that CD!

Well, serves me right then for only paying a momentary glance and you taking an actual look to find out that i didn't sound as stupid as i thought i did to begin with :P

24 minutes ago, Redneckerz said:

Well, serves me right then for only paying a momentary glance and you taking an actual look to find out that i didn't sound as stupid as i thought i did to begin with :P

I feel really dumb! 

I've looked at that cover many times but I've never read it! XD XD

Quote

In the past I have searched around the web for any trace of this CD, but found no results. It's possible that this CD has been lost to time so I'm doing what I can to preserve it.

 

I had stated this on the original post, but since then, I did in fact come across one source containing a bunch of shovelware Doom CDs (and some floppies)! The original site is now gone, but here is a webarchive link - https://web.archive.org/web/20160310200714/http://addoncollector.spielepedia.de/doomde.html

 

My CD indeed appears on the list! :) Also, please take a moment to appreciate those retro CD covers. Here are some of my favorites:

 

 

I don't know how many of these CDs have been preserved online, but I hope this link can stir up some old memories. Share it around, and let me know if you recognize any of these! I'd be happy to add a section onto this thread containing links to other such add-on dumps.

 

--

Btw, thanks for the fascinating info, @deathz0r! Would it even be possible to get this onto /idgames? I'm not sure how the process goes, but if they are obliged to check every file for malicious or offensive content, this would take a decade, rofl (besides, I haven't even looked through all of these myself yet, for all I know there could actually be some offensive crap hidden inside...)

If this can be usefulI, another copy of BATTLE.ZIP is available in the Cobra Utilities For Doom & Doom II (1994) Disc 2" Cobra 3B" (unfortunately Archive.org doesn't show the full content).

This copy includes a FILE_ID.DIZ file.

 BATTLE.ZIP

 

EDIT: also available as BATTLE.WAD (BATTLE.ZIP) in the Levelmania cd.

Release date and SHA1 are identical to the copies already posted. Probably the CD compiler/publisher simply changed the name.

Edited September 17, 2023 by thestarrover : new link added

On 9/16/2023 at 1:23 AM, Redneckerz said:

So, how would you want to go on about with this? My initial thought was to craft a History of Doom Editing article on the Wiki, and together with that, /idgames supplied links to these files. The latter is perhaps a bit of a slippery slope because of what we can put up on /idgames. Many of these editors are by authors either inactive in Doom, or perhaps passed away. I am not sure if the historic value of a piece of software overrides what an author may or may not intend in its license (IANAL).

My plan is to make a thread here on DW - I could do something for the Wiki.

On 9/16/2023 at 1:23 AM, Redneckerz said:

That is very interesting. Why would one do that?

I also realized (and i am sure you do too) that GEOFF.WAD and SWELL.WAD contain a PLATFORM lump. The accompanying text file (again, not at home) gives reason why, but i can't seem to find what its effect is.

Given that the WADs also contain a INFOPACK lump (a feature unique to Renegade Graphics DoomED), I'm guessing the maps were made with a very early version that did not handle saving levels properly. I'll need to investigate this further.

The PLATFORM lump is created by Geoff Allan's DoomED (don't you love that there's three DoomEDs? it was great when I was streaming using both of the "unofficial" DoomEDs and needing to repeatedly mention that they're not id Software's DoomED, despite explicitly mentioning who made which DoomED I was using in the overlay) which contains verbose information about tag numbers - something very much like Doom Builder's .dbs files except they're embedded in the WAD. Some early map editors don't like the INFOPACK or PLATFORM lumps at all as they screwed up map detection in WADs with multiple levels, others simply ignore it and even discard it.

On 9/16/2023 at 1:23 AM, Redneckerz said:

It would be great to have a timeline of these, from the earliest THINGS editor to the first editor that could actually make a level. Never_Again stated that this was DoomED 2.20, but that hasn't appeared on PC (right?) and DEU initially didn't make full levels, correct? (Wiki states DEU 5.0 was the first all-in-one editor including node builder)

I'm guessing when you say "hasn't appeared on PC" you meant "hasn't appeared on a shovelware CD", in which case it's definitely on a few of them. Supergames Volume 2 is a fantastic source of the earliest editors.

 

"first editor that could actually make a level" is such a broad statement, but let's focus on this specific claim that you are making for Geoff Allan's DoomED 2.20. Does it mean "the ability to make a PWAD"? If so, no - DoomED 2.20 does not even have the ability to do that, the closest it can do is export to some proprietary binary format called WMF which is exclusive to Geoff Allan's DoomED (I can't even figure out how to open a WMF file - what's the point of a write-only format?), but it will happily modify the IWAD. According to the changelog, 2.30 is the earliest version that can export to a new WAD file, but the earliest extant version I can find is 2.42, which has the ability to both export a single level to a WAD (with an IWAD header rather than PWAD) and to export to a WMF file. Does it mean "the ability to generate (close to) correct nodes for a level"? If so, that's also a no since while it can edit the position of vertices, (which is precisely what Never_Again claimed, and he's not wrong in that regard as I have tested this myself) it has a rather vague claim within its changelog that persists until 2.50B3, where the changelog magically disappears from text files from 2.60B:

        - Vertex editing also fixes nodes, segs, & blockmap.
          This means REAL MAP EDITING for the first time ANYWHERE.
          There are still some problems, but generally useful...

Whatever "fixes nodes" means, it doesn't fully work since the nodes are still broken, though exporting the NODES lump with SLADE shows that the SHA256 sum doesn't match when doing a simple vertex edit with E1M1, the same happens with 2.42. Even more curious when you read changelog for 2.50B, dated 28th March 1994:

       	- Nodes, ssectors, segs are rebuilt (code from Deu)

The ability to export to WMF persists until 2.60B4, and is removed from 3.0 alpha 8.

On 9/16/2023 at 1:23 AM, Redneckerz said:

So given your earlier timeline, we can reasonably conclude that DOPE was the first external editor other than Id's DoomED that could alter something from the WAD file.

That is the exact opposite of what I'm implying. I'm not sure how you could even-

On 9/16/2023 at 1:23 AM, Redneckerz said:

Sadly even the usual suspects lack any info in regards to what editors were used, beyond the timestamps in which DEU was released - So it is indirect evidence. Again, i love to see the original files used to make ORIGWAD/CROSS/GEOFF, but i am afraid this is likely only in private hands.

Ok, now you're clearly making shit up at this point. All of those WADs have text files explicitly describing what was done - you even linked to DE_242 which has WADS.TXT inside it!

On 9/16/2023 at 1:23 AM, Redneckerz said:

Almost 2 weeks before the official DEU 5 release. I don't know about you, but i have a hunch (based on only the fact that so many editors existed before this time frame) that there might be something earlier (as in: with a functional nodesbuilder) around. This would go against the status quo that DEU is the first all-in-one editor, i am just saying.

Baseless half-assed deductions like this should have something to back it up. Stick to more reliable sources, like copies across multiple shovelware CDs from completely different publishers and USENET posts.

On 9/16/2023 at 1:23 AM, Redneckerz said:

This one gets me confused however - You did say it was the earliest WAD around, beating ORIGWAD and being an Id-level replacement. If DEU5BETA was the earliest DEU with a node builder, how was this made? I reckon some part of it was done with DEU 3 or DTEDIT, but what about the node generation part? Back at BATTLE.ZIP's release, there wasn't any available (Considering DEU5BETA followed over a month later). Was this generated by hand? And if so, how?

It's a good thing that every version of DEU except for 2.00 has the source code included, so that we have a trail of what exactly happens between 3.00 and 5.0. What does the SaveLevelData function do in each version, and where is that function located?

 

3.00/3.01 (EDIT.C) - merely copies all lumps except for THINGS, which it generates

4.0/4.1 (EDIT.C) - generates THINGS/LINEDEFS/SIDEDEFS/VERTEXES/SEGS/SECTORS, "generates" SSECTORS (code does read and organise the lump data into a struct, but does nothing with editing or even reading data in that struct) and copies NODES/REJECT/BLOCKMAP

4.2/4.3/4.31 (EDIT.C) - generates THINGS/LINEDEFS/SIDEDEFS/VERTEXES/SEGS/SSECTORS/SECTORS/BLOCKMAP, also "generates" NODES as 4.2/4.3/4.31 do have a node viewer but it's effectively just writing what it had read from the NODES lump when opening a level just like the SSECTORS lump in 4.0/4.1, copies REJECT lump

DEU5BETA/5.0 beta 4 (EDIT.C) - generates everything, though REJECT is all 0s

5.0 (LEVELS.C) - as above, but map reading/writing moved to its own C file

 

Does that answer your question?

 

Shockingly, an even easier answer is simply reading the text files included with the editors which will usually be accurate with what it can and can't do, apart from whatever the hell Geoff Allan was smoking when he wrote the 2.20 changelog.

 

EDIT: Even better, feel free to test and experiment with the editors! I've attached everything up that I've found from February 13th 1994 until the release of BSP 1.0. Between this and my previous posts, that should cover everything currently known.

 

Curiously, BSP 0.9 has only been found on a single CD like DEU5BETA (this time, it was on Gold Medal #3) and also like DEU5BETA I can't find anything on USENET regarding it, but the lack of source code existing for BSP 1.0 (yet every other subsequent version does have source code) makes it hard to tell the difference between those two versions. At least between 0.9 and 1.1 we can still see there's shim code of DEU functions (why is it trying to initialise graphics modes?) that's definitely gone by 1.1.

 

On 9/17/2023 at 3:12 AM, thestarrover said:

If this can be usefulI, another copy of BATTLE.ZIP is available in the Cobra Utilities For Doom & Doom II (1994) Disc 2" Cobra 3B" (unfortunately Archive.org doesn't show the full content).

This copy includes a FILE_ID.DIZ file.

 BATTLE.ZIP

 

EDIT: also available as BATTLE.WAD (BATTLE.ZIP) in the Levelmania cd.

Release date and SHA1 are identical to the copies already posted. Probably the CD compiler/publisher simply changed the name.

At least 95% of FILE_ID.DIZ files you will find within ZIPs are clearly auto-generated by some BBS software with enough cross-referencing other ZIP files, so those to me are tainting the ZIP. I have a ton of ZIPs for early PWADs with FILE_ID.DIZ files with a date of 17th July 1987.

doomedit2.zip

Edited September 18, 2023 by deathz0r : added attachment

What about the Doom Object Editor (DOE10.ZIP)  by Dean Helsley released 02/13/1994? I cannot find it on the Doomwiki. Is it maybe a custom/modified version of another editor?

 

 

On 9/15/2023 at 5:23 PM, Redneckerz said:

So, how would you want to go on about with this? My initial thought was to craft a History of Doom Editing article on the Wiki

Fine as an idea as that is, I think it might be even better to simply create a History section on the already existing page for Editors. Certain pages already have a history section (i.e. MacDoom) so I think it would make the most sense, and would be more readily accessible and visible to most people.

10 hours ago, deathz0r said:

My plan is to make a thread here on DW - I could do something for the Wiki.

Then ill await your DW thread and pull info from there - What you provided now is already very useful, and i know Nockson, perhaps concurrently yet unbeknownst of this, is making pages on them (DMAPEDIT was recently added). So ill just pull some dates and details from your posts and add them to the wiki (and likely link to these posts, far too useful to not archive those too)

Quote

Given that the WADs also contain a INFOPACK lump (a feature unique to Renegade Graphics DoomED), I'm guessing the maps were made with a very early version that did not handle saving levels properly. I'll need to investigate this further.

It is good that you mentioned that lump is exclusive. When the page for Renegade's DoomED gets made this will be added in. This will also apply for the PLATFORM lump and the .WMF file for DoomED. A quick hunt through the Usenet groups leaves exactly one mention of it, so that's very cool.

Quote

I'm guessing when you say "hasn't appeared on PC" you meant "hasn't appeared on a shovelware CD", in which case it's definitely on a few of them. Supergames Volume 2 is a fantastic source of the earliest editors.

Actually the former, but i am dumb and i don't look often enough in the Usenet group.

Quote

"first editor that could actually make a level" is such a broad statement, but let's focus on this specific claim that you are making for Geoff Allan's DoomED 2.20. Does it mean "the ability to make a PWAD"? If so, no - DoomED 2.20 does not even have the ability to do that, the closest it can do is export to some proprietary binary format called WMF which is exclusive to Geoff Allan's DoomED (I can't even figure out how to open a WMF file - what's the point of a write-only format?), but it will happily modify the IWAD.

Another exclusivity that is then. Thanks for the write up, this will be great when we are going to detail this. And yeah, i made that claim based on Never_Again's post - which i erronousely applied rather liberally and stated Can it make a level - No, it can manipulate VERTEXES and thus the geometry of the stock levels.. Like i said, i am dumb. 

Quote

That is the exact opposite of what I'm implying. I'm not sure how you could even-

All i am doing is looking at your date of DOPE (December 1993) and saying it can change something from the WAD file. It is very likely that i quantify changing objects in a WAD with altering a WAD file, in which case, i am dumb. Too often in these matters i have this shitty shtick of saying something related but not absolute, whereas your research revolves around absolute statements. Therefore, 

Quote

Ok, now you're clearly making shit up at this point.

Hand on my chest that i am not! When it comes to this kind of things i often ask a whole lot of things that is only tangibly related to the source material. This isn't just to fuck with you, its just for clarity. And yes, i am aware of that text file - But that's exactly why i am speculating about the source file, if they used some kind of script or not. 

 

I feel that, judging your response, i have to let that theory go and instead go with what you are providing - Namely that editors over time got incremental features.

The last thing though, the first WADS had their nodes generated by hand - <- How does one do this, considering the state of editors at the time.

Quote

Baseless half-assed deductions like this should have something to back it up. Stick to more reliable sources, like copies across multiple shovelware CDs from completely different publishers and USENET posts.

You know, i know, which is why i said it was a hunch (based on only the fact that so many editors existed before this time frame) meaning there is nothing exact to indicate this at the moment. For you to then say, its a baseless half-assed deduction is true, but its also rather strong terminology. I think in your dedication and excitment it came to this, so let me just say this - i am dumb.

Quote

Does that answer your question?

Yes it does. And yes, i should read the texts.

Quote

Curiously, BSP 0.9 has only been found on a single CD like DEU5BETA (this time, it was on Gold Medal #3) and also like DEU5BETA I can't find anything on USENET regarding it, but the lack of source code existing for BSP 1.0 (yet every other subsequent version does have source code) makes it hard to tell the difference between those two versions. At least between 0.9 and 1.1 we can still see there's shim code of DEU functions (why is it trying to initialise graphics modes?) that's definitely gone by 1.1.

Now, it begs to wonder if there are any levels out there that are built with BSP 0.9.. (Disclaimer: I didn't read any texts, i am at work.)

 

PS: BSP09 on Gold Medal 03 is here. 

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Redneckerz

3 hours ago, Dynamo said:

Fine as an idea as that is, I think it might be even better to simply create a History section on the already existing page for Editors. Certain pages already have a history section (i.e. MacDoom) so I think it would make the most sense, and would be more readily accessible and visible to most people.

DP, but yes, agreed.